里斯本條約終於簽了

里斯本條約終於正式簽署,現時等待歐盟國家在未來一年,陸續通過里斯本條約文本,以及愛爾蘭共和國的公投。

由於里斯本條約是對現有歐盟條約的修訂,因此,照國寶豬所言,隨著1982年英國對歐盟國籍聲明的失效,香港人的英國國籍澄清問題,亦隨里斯本條約的簽署,以及落實進入最後階段。

現時各位在港英籍人士,要密切留意里斯本條約的通過情況。但小弟認為,情況是樂觀的。現時要看英國是打算將BNO身份與英國公民身份合併,為每一位BNO持有人另發一本英國公民護照,還是直接讓BNO當成歐盟護照使用。

但不論那一種情況也好,要解決的問題,始終都要步向解決。

28 thoughts on “里斯本條約終於簽了

  1. 根據Article 299, 可能因里斯本條約而得益的,不止於BN(O),還有已得外國籍的BOC、BPP及BS,這班人的英籍同樣不是因為與英國海外領土關係而得的。

  2. 這次我不是來找麻煩的, 請指教.

    關於這個問題, 我沒有詳細研究, 但似乎關鍵於這句:”This Treaty shall not apply to those overseas countries and territories having special relations with the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland”
    無論相對於歐洲或uk而言, 香港肯定是一個”overseas territory”, 這個不用討論, 那真正關鍵就是”having special relations with UK”.
    香港和UK現在有沒有”Special relations”? 國寶豬提到聯合聲明. “聲明”附件二規定聯絡小組運作至2000年1月1日, 表明最少在這日子前, UK與HK仍有一定的”special relation”. 當然, 這日子已過去了.
    如果出現一個假設性情況: 2047年之前, 人大廢除基本法, 在香港實行社會主義, 有什麼地方可以接受申訴, 又有什麼人可以作為Applicant? UK可否作為applicant? 其它國家又可否作為applicant? 如果只有UK可以, 便證明了UK和HK有”special relation”了.

    另外, 在條約中選擇使用”special relation”, 而不用”dependent territory”, 本身是否就是要exclude 香港?

    國寶豬還有一個point, 說上述條文不指個人, 如果此言成理, 則上述條文根本與國藉問題無關, 因為國藉都是指個人的, countries或territories都沒有國藉的.

    但又有一點我不明白的, 如果一個英藉人士到了一個exclude了的地方, 會否令他(暫時)失去歐洲公民的身份? 倒過來說, BNO持有人到了歐洲本土, 就會有歐洲公民的身份?

    至於BNO是不是17條所講的nationality, 又是另一個問題了.

  3. Johnson Lau不是來找麻煩,我絕不信的,你要明白我對Johnson Lau的認識度。Johnson Lau是土共支持者,我是非常清楚,請不要我下逐客令。

    里斯本條約的原文是法文來的,此其一,其二,在歐陸還是英國territories意義是英國屬土,唔明這點請你自己找律師。

  4. To Johnson Lau:

    條文一定係以地方為本,不以人為本,因條約是對地方有約束力,不是個人本身,所以用countries and territories係無問題。

    例如一位英國公民去英國海外領土 – 百慕達,他不能行駛歐洲公民權利。現行BN(O)沒有歐洲公民權利,但若BN(O)本身直接被納入歐洲公民的定義,那BN(O)就算去到EU的mainland或Outmost Region如French Overseas Department – French Guiana等地,都可行駛歐洲公民權利。

    我不太明白你所說的BN(O)s是否”nationals of a Member State”,但我很擔心的是在2006年EU對BN(O)的描述:”BRITISH CITIZENS WHO ARE NOT NATIONALS OF THE UNITED KINGDOM OF GREAT BRITIAN AND NORTHERN IRELAND”,這種與英國政府唱反調的做法,究竟是用法律用字去包庇英國,還是真的為BN(O)成為歐洲公民開綠燈?!記住,這個說法是”FOR THE PURPOSES OF COMMUNITY LAW”。相當玩味…..

  5. 如果我要找你麻煩, 可以用更多方法, 也不必用這個名字. 你要這樣想, 我也無話可說了. 也許你忘記了在2003年中大評議會的23條論壇後, 我曾和你曾在中環街頭討論這個問題達數小時, 那時候還是戴著口罩的日子. 如果你真的覺得我是找麻煩的, 那時候你便是冒著生命危險來浪費時間.
    我不在discuss講, 只因為那裏太多垃圾言論. 當然, 如果你不願意講的, 我也不會自討沒趣.

  6. Johnson Lau:

    Although I am not familar with the Lisbon Treaty, I would like to point out mistakes for discussion:

    1) Nowadays, the old term “dependent terrotroies” is seldom used because of political correctness. Although the UK government still has the final say on a lot of issues in the overseas territorites, the use of “dependent” seems to imply that citizens in the overseas territories are inferior to those living in the UK becasue they need Britain’s support.

    2) Since 1/7/97, there has n’t been any relationship between the UK and a territoriy – Hongkong. All relationship remains here is that there are 3x10E6 British Nationals (e.g. BCs, BOCs and BNOs). 聯絡小組has done “nothing” to the UK Nationality Laws.

    To: MO’s notebook 3 to 4front page About 關於我本人 About me 廣告政策 ← 要屈人唔該屈得高明少少
    里斯本條約終於簽了
    December 13, 2007 · 6 Comments
    里斯本條約終於正式簽署,現時等待歐盟國家在未來一年,陸續通過里斯本條約文本,以及愛爾蘭共和國的公投。

    由於里斯本條約是對現有歐盟條約的修訂,因此,照國寶豬所言,隨著1982年英國對歐盟國籍聲明的失效,香港人的英國國籍澄清問題,亦隨里斯本條約的簽署,以及落實進入最後階段。

    現時各位在港英籍人士,要密切留意里斯本條約的通過情況。但小弟認為,情況是樂觀的。現時要看英國是打算將BNO身份與英國公民身份合併,為每一位BNO持有人另發一本英國公民護照,還是直接讓BNO當成歐盟護照使用。

    但不論那一種情況也好,要解決的問題,始終都要步向解決。

    Categories: 英國與歐洲

    6 responses so far ↓

    ~柊~ // December 13, 2007 at 4:16 pm

    根據Article 299, 可能因里斯本條約而得益的,不止於BN(O),還有已得外國籍的BOC、BPP及BS,這班人的英籍同樣不是因為與英國海外領土關係而得的。

    Johnson Lau // December 13, 2007 at 4:27 pm

    這次我不是來找麻煩的, 請指教.

    關於這個問題, 我沒有詳細研究, 但似乎關鍵於這句:”This Treaty shall not apply to those overseas countries and territories having special relations with the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland”
    無論相對於歐洲或uk而言, 香港肯定是一個”overseas territory”, 這個不用討論, 那真正關鍵就是”having special relations with UK”.
    香港和UK現在有沒有”Special relations”? 國寶豬提到聯合聲明. “聲明”附件二規定聯絡小組運作至2000年1月1日, 表明最少在這日子前, UK與HK仍有一定的”special relation”. 當然, 這日子已過去了.
    如果出現一個假設性情況: 2047年之前, 人大廢除基本法, 在香港實行社會主義, 有什麼地方可以接受申訴, 又有什麼人可以作為Applicant? UK可否作為applicant? 其它國家又可否作為applicant? 如果只有UK可以, 便證明了UK和HK有”special relation”了.

    另外, 在條約中選擇使用”special relation”, 而不用”dependent territory”, 本身是否就是要exclude 香港?

    國寶豬還有一個point, 說上述條文不指個人, 如果此言成理, 則上述條文根本與國藉問題無關, 因為國藉都是指個人的, countries或territories都沒有國藉的.

    但又有一點我不明白的, 如果一個英藉人士到了一個exclude了的地方, 會否令他(暫時)失去歐洲公民的身份? 倒過來說, BNO持有人到了歐洲本土, 就會有歐洲公民的身份?

    至於BNO是不是17條所講的nationality, 又是另一個問題了.

    martinoei // December 13, 2007 at 4:36 pm

    Johnson Lau不是來找麻煩,我絕不信的,你要明白我對Johnson Lau的認識度。Johnson Lau是土共支持者,我是非常清楚,請不要我下逐客令。

    里斯本條約的原文是法文來的,此其一,其二,在歐陸還是英國territories意義是英國屬土,唔明這點請你自己找律師。

    To: ~柊

    Regaing BRITISH CITIZENS WHO ARE NOT NATIONALS OF THE UNITED KINGDOM OF GREAT BRITIAN AND NORTHERN IRELAND”, I do have some question. In the UK, the term “citizen” are not the same as the “national”. Citizens enjoy more rights but need to take more responsibilities. I don’t understand why the BNOs are considered as a citizen but no a national because we BNOs do not have the same right as a BC.

  7. I think the UK has declared that BNO are NOT EU citizens when signing the Lisbon Treaty. 國寶豬 is only seeking clarification.

    See below (p.25, article 63):
    http://www.consilium.europa.eu/uedocs/cmsUpload/cg00014.en07.pdf

    63. Declaration by the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland on the definition of the term “nationals”
    In respect of the Treaties and the Treaty establishing the European Atomic Energy Community, and in any of the acts deriving from those Treaties or continued in force by those Treaties, the United Kingdom reiterates the Declaration it made on 31 December 1982 on the definition of the term “nationals” with the exception that the reference to “British Dependent Territories Citizens” shall be read as meaning “British overseas territories citizens”.

  8. Personally I do NOT think BOC, BPP, BS will get ROA in the UK due to the following reasons:

    1) In the Lisbon Treaty, the 1982 declaration is retained and nothing will change. I appreciate 國寶豬’s effort but he is not likely to be successful.

    2) BOC, BS, BOTC (without ROA) and BPP do NOT enjoy visa-free access into the EU. In the document, it has already stated that these people only have a “tenuous” link with the United Kingdom, as they have no right of abode in the UK and subject to UK immigration controls.

    http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200506/cmselect/cmeuleg/34-xxxvii/34×22.htm

    3) But I do think there is some chance that BNO will get EU citizenship. First, BNO started to enjoy visa-free access into EU in 2007 and many EU countries like Germany stopped stamping BNO passports.

  9. [RE-POST]
    The link of the previous post was wrong.

    ********************************************

    I think the UK has declared that BNO are NOT EU citizens when signing the Lisbon Treaty. 國寶豬 is only seeking clarification.

    See below (p.35 of 36, article 63):
    http://www.consilium.europa.eu/uedocs/cmsUpload/cg00015.en07.pdf

    63. Declaration by the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland on the definition of the term “nationals”
    In respect of the Treaties and the Treaty establishing the European Atomic Energy Community, and in any of the acts deriving from those Treaties or continued in force by those Treaties, the United Kingdom reiterates the Declaration it made on 31 December 1982 on the definition of the term “nationals” with the exception that the reference to “British Dependent Territories Citizens” shall be read as meaning “British overseas territories citizens”.

  10. I said only BNO enjoy visa-free access into EU.
    BOC, BOTC (without ROA), BS (without ROA), BPP do not enjoy visa-free access into EU.
    Some people like Martin suggested that it is a sign that BNOs will enjoy EU citizenship soon.

  11. Well, not just that, we have Lord Goldsmith, commissioned by Gordon Brown, to review the citizenship law, and simplification of the different categories is the only way for them to goo; 1. It saves so much money 2. They need to ratify the protocol 3 as they have signed, and a lot of human rights groups are forcing them to do so.

    Bring all these up to the forum http://BritishHongKong.com.

    Also, Sam and Martin, I have created accounts for both of you to write some articles on the BritishHongKong blog http://bnowiki.net/blog. Please join me, I am totally in need of your great help!!!!

  12. I think Martin only suggested that BNOs will enjoy EU citizenship soon because of the visa-free access into EU for BNOs.

    If BNO did not enjoy EU visa-free access, Martin’s argument is not valid.

  13. 無論佢地邊樣聲明, 都係引用”地區”而分類, 但這個聲明根本不適用於身上. 老夫現在就係要歐盟釋法, BNO和其他BOC/BOTC/BS身份不同.

    而目前四者只有BNO擁有歐盟免簽證, 就清楚表明歐盟清楚分便BNO不同之處.

    大家要有信心, 在英國/歐盟法規內, 我們是英國國民. 共產黨講乜洗鬼理佢地?!

    新站終於做好了, 請Martin兄間中幫手帶人入來支持, 個網係做俾英國/歐洲/正宗香港人睇架!

    http://www.britishhongkong.com

  14. 1. Johnson Lau我建議大家不用理會這土共傢伙,他大學時已經在cuhk.forum支持港共,我這裡不是讓人做統戰工作,我為免有人替他訂大紀元,我會稍後刪掉他有email的comment。

    2. 我同意Sam Fan的看法,英國似乎重申了1982的國籍聲明,而1982聲明對national of European有頗嚴的界定。當然,這與Article 299就撞到亂晒籠,同埋1982年未有BNO這東西。

  15. 11972B/AFI/DCL/07

    AT THE TIME OF SIGNATURE OF THE TREATY OF ACCESSION , THE GOVERNMENT OF THE UNITED KINGDOM OF GREAT BRITAIN AND NORTHERN IRELAND MAKE THE FOLLOWING DECLARATION :

    ” AS TO THE UNITED KINGDOM OF GREAT BRITAIN AND NORTHERN IRELAND , THE TERMS ” NATIONALS ” , ” NATIONALS OF MEMBER STATES ” OR ” NATIONALS OF MEMBER STATES AND OVERSEAS COUNTRIES AND TERRITORIES ” WHEREVER USED IN THE TREATY ESTABLISHING THE EUROPEAN ECONOMIC COMMUNITY , THE TREATY ESTABLISHING THE EUROPEAN ATOMIC ENERGY COMMUNITY OR THE TREATY ESTABLISHING THE EUROPEAN COAL AND STEEL COMMUNITY OR IN ANY OF THE COMMUNITY ACTS DERIVING FROM THOSE TREATIES , ARE TO BE UNDERSTOOD TO REFER TO :

    ( A ) PERSONS WHO ARE CITIZENS OF THE UNITED KINGDOM AND COLONIES OR BRITISH SUBJECTS NOT POSSESSING THAT CITIZENSHIP OR THE CITIZENSHIP OF ANY OTHER COMMONWEALTH COUNTRY OR TERRITORY , WHO , IN EITHER CASE , HAVE THE RIGHT OF ABODE IN THE UNITED KINGDOM , AND ARE THEREFORE EXEMPT FROM UNITED KINGDOM IMMIGRATION CONTROL ;

    ( B ) PERSONS WHO ARE CITIZENS OF THE UNITED KINGDOM AND COLONIES BY BIRTH OR BY REGISTRATION OR NATURALIZATION IN GIBRALTAR , OR WHOSE FATHER WAS SO BORN , REGISTERED OR NATURALIZED . “

  16. 這是1982的declaration:

    In 1982, in view of the entry into force of the British Nationality Act 1981, the United Kingdom Government lodged with the Italian Government, as depositary of the Treaties, the 1982 Declaration, which replaced the 1972 Declaration with effect from 1 January 1983. The 1982 Declaration provides:

    ‘As to the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, the terms nationals, nationals of Member States or nationals of Member States and overseas countries and territories, wherever used in the Treaty establishing the European Economic Community, the Treaty establishing the European Atomic Energy Community or the Treaty establishing the European Coal and Steel Community or in any of the Community acts deriving from those Treaties, are to be understood to refer to:

    (a) British citizens;

    (b) Persons who are British subjects by virtue of Part IV of the British Nationality Act 1981 and who have the right of abode in the United Kingdom and are therefore exempt from United Kingdom immigration control;

    (c) British Dependent Territories citizens who acquire their citizenship from a connection with Gibraltar.

    照這樣看,照英國接納歐洲人權憲章的做法,英國如果要保持這份聲明,但又要符合歐洲的標準,那只有恢復BNO英國公民身份,或BNO+BC Passport做法可取。

  17. Guys, don’t be so discouraged. Even the 1982 declaration is still effective understand the Lisbon Treaty, we still have chances to get ROA:

    1) If the UK wants to amend the declaration to include BNOs, it should not be too difficult. What the UK needs to do is add a sentence to the declaration.

    2) Even the declaration does not cover BOC, BDTC etc., many often them now are eligible to register as BCs.

  18. BOTC 只有在 2002 年 5 月後才歸化英國屬土的人, 才不能有居英權

    BPP, BS 根本已經全數符合登記 BC 或本身為歐盟公民

    BOC 的確有部份人仍未能登記成為 BC,
    如果本身當地國家容許雙重國籍

  19. 2002 年 5 月後才歸化英國屬土的人, 才不能有居英權

    Why..???? If I were born in one of the UK overseas territories after that day, wt kind of nationality would I get?

  20. 呢個 point 係有得拗, 但佢 2002 出呢個 ACT 時,
    講明呢一刻係英國屬土的先可以登記 BC
    故此香港唔合資格

  21. to bnoer:
    不是大部分BS都entitle to BC,因為大部分BS都是已經是愛爾蘭籍。

    to ken:
    如果你的父母都不是英國海外領土公民,就算你在海外領土出生,都不會有BOTC身分。此條款只是針對在該日之後歸化成為BOTC的人的,這些人被英國認定為與英國沒有密切關係的人,我認為英國這樣做,只會製造更多新問題…這批人一樣會向英國追討BC。

  22. to 柊

    其實呢種 BOTC 的人, 少之又少,
    我覺得英國要處理佢地, 實在十分容易

    宜家英國最煩係華人 BN(O) 同埋大批
    本國容許雙重國籍的 BOC

  23. 如果生物特徵版的BNO會印有十多個歐洲語言,規格與英國公民幾乎一樣的原因,因為BNO會成為歐盟公民的消息是真的話(我相信今次英國係真), 好大機會為BNO開路, 而我的願望亦會成真. 就算你駡我都好, 我本人好鐘意中國歷史文化, 飲食同語言, 但對於中國人………..抱歉! 太複雜! 我到依家對中國政府仍然無信心!!!!!

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